Based on Tommy's conjecture that spanking is wrong because it COULD cause a child to become more aggressive, then I guess that means, REALLY, that ANY form of discipline is wrong because it COULD cause a child to feel and become a certain way.

Setting them in a time out COULD make them feel separated from the world and not worthy to be a part of it, because an EFFECTIVE time out is done away from the social center of the family.

Taking things away from them COULD make them feel like you don't want them to be happy because you are taking away those things that make them feel happy.

Either one of the above punishments has potential to cause a child to become anti-social in some way or another, even potentially aggressive because they COULD learn that they have to FIGHT for what it is they want. Even if they learn they need to behave in order to get out of that punishment, they also learn how to deceive so they can do what they want to do without getting caught.

So I guess the ONLY appropriate method of discipline, to a man who doesn't have children, is to reason with them. I'd like to see him reason with a three year old. Doesn't happen.

The fact is, ANY form of discipline has potential to cause a child to become something we don't want them to become. To say "you shouldn't discipline like this because it COULD cause the child to become [insert example here]" would mean to take away all forms of discipline because they ALL could cause that potentially bad behavioral outcome. And then where would we be? We'd end up with children who think they deserve everything they want and will do whatever they want to get it and not care what the parents say or do.

Oh wait....we already deal with children like that more than we ever have in the past. I wonder why that is? Hmmm...........

your totally right. my niece is like that...she never gets disciplined and whenever she doesnt get what she wants or slightly gets yelled at shes mad and starts crying

I could give you a standing ovation for that!

if you do not address the root cause for the child that acts up.

you will not solve anything

your only concerned with how to punish a child, to get what YOU want

try and be more interested in helping a child, to get to the root and why the child acts up

forget about being so adamant on how to punish them a right correct way, which ignoring the root cause, and every child is different.

whilst* ignoring the root cause

The only time I have ever laid a hand on my child was when he did something that was harmful to himself (running into the street when he knows better), or when he has done something to harm another person (hitting, scratching, throwing toys, ect), in which I did swat him on his little butt, not hard enough to hurt him, but with enough strength behind it that taught him that what he was doing was absolutely not allowed.

Do you want to know what I think about spanking? I think spanking is retarded. Wow, so you are frusterated with your child's lack of respect for you & you "spank" them & make them cry. Sure, it might make them think twice before they disobey you.. maybe, however, it installs fear in them. I'm not saying that you are abusing your child by spanking them, but I am saying that I think it's stupid & that I don't agree with it, and if you are one of the many silly parents who think that spanking their child is necessary in order to get them to obey you... I'm laughing at your lack of parental control. :D :D :D

I don't want my child to be obedient because he's scared of me, I want my child to thoroughly understand why he should be a good kid & not disrespect his parents (or anyone for that matter). Spanking has never really been effective so far as I have seen.

I feel that there are other ways to get a point across to a child. "Time out" can be quite effective when disciplining a child, as well as taking pleasure/lesuire objects away when the situation calls for it. Spanking is such an old fashioned method of punishment, considering the other many alternatives that are available to parents now days. Unless the child who was spanked endangered their self, or another person, I think people who spank their children are just plain LAZY. Yup, that's right I said it. If your child is acting out so much that you feel that they need to be "spanked" or physically punished them, maybe you should step back & look at your own ways of parenting & re evaluate things just a little bit.

ALL KIDS WILL ACT OUT, it's up to the parents to teach them what is right and what is wrong and it is up to the parent to draw the line. My husband and I talk to our child so much that he just gets it. He's 3 years old & by golly, we don't spank him as typical punishment for fucking up, we talk to him in words that he understands, when he does act in a way that is disobedient he gets put in "time out", 1 minute for each year of his age. 3 years old = 3 mins, ya dig? If he throws a toy or throws a fit over a toy (not sharing, taking toys that aren't his, ect) he loses privilages to playing with that toy for a few hours to a day depending on the seriousness of his tantrum. If he uses foul language he goes straight into "time out", and until he says that he's sorry, he doesn't get to go play outside or have any sugary treats (cookies, animal crackers, icey pops, ect). Maybe my son is just a good kid but damn, when my child does something he KNOWS he's not suppose to do, all me and my husband have to really do is stop what we're doing, walk over to him, take his little hands & look into his baby blue eyes & tell him "Jaimen, that was bad, what you just did was BAD." Then we ask him "are you suppose to do that/throw that/take that, ect...?" He says "no", then we say "Jaimen, that was BAD," purposely emphasising the word "bad." Almost instantly, he gives the pouty face, closes his eyes, puts his head down & cries. He knows that he fucked up when he does it because we communicate to him as much as we do.

It's possible for all parents to be patient, & willing to teach their children right from wrong, without having to use "spanking" as discipline & yet I've seen only a mere hand full of parents actually spend the time with their children to build up such a relationship with them. I just sigh & shake my head to those people.

When our child is good, he is rewarded for good behavior. He goes outside to play, gets an extra cookie or handful of animal crackers, 1 more icey pop, ect.. My husband and I TELL HIM, COMMUNICATE WITH HIM, that he is doing wonderful & that we are proud of his good behavior. Spanking is just not as effective as it was back when my mother's mother's great grandmother's mother fell off of her pet dinosaur & broke her wooden underwear. ♥ :D :P

SPANKING = FAIL AS PARENTS

Simple as that, it's not fucking rocket science. :D :D :D

"actually spend the time with their children to build up such a relationship with them" *WHO actual spend the time with their children* Sorry for the type O. :D :D :D

Yup. Just as I thought this thread was going to turn out. A "who's a better parent" thread.

"I'm a better parent than you, you fail as a parent, because you spank your child."

Just like "I'm a better parent than you, you fail as a parent because you use disposable diapers that aren't good for your baby's skin" and "I'm a better parent than you, you fail as a parent because you bottle-feed instead of breast-feed" and "I'm a better parent than you, you fail as a parent because you don't feed your baby only organic, homemade food".

So I guess EVERYONE in this thread FAILS as a parent for some reason or another.

Spanking doesn't work with all children. The other methods don't work with all children. The FACT is you have to find what does work. If you are spanking your child ALL THE TIME, there are other issues you need to take care of. But if, once in a while, you spank your child because they have done something VERY VERY wrong, and you only use spanking limitedly, you don't fail as a parent. PERIOD.

Stop being so judgmental just because someone does something YOU don't think should be done. You don't have to do it with your child, GREAT! Not all of us are so lucky.

I'd also like to add that just because you find yourself needing to use spanking ONCE IN A WHILE (read: sparingly) it doesn't mean you don't spend enough time with your child, it doesn't mean you're being a lazy parent, it doesn't mean you're abusing your child. What it DOES mean is that you probably have a very spirited child who needs something drastic done to get it into their heads that what they are doing is not right. It doesn't mean you're not doing a good job parenting or not paying enough attention to your child.

I have two children. Both are older so spankings are not utilized anymore. But when they were younger, my oldest one didn't need spankings. You just look at him with a disappointed look and he'd get the idea. My younger one, though....OH BOY was he determined to get what he wanted. He refused to sit in time out, and I refused to tie him to the chair. Reasoning with him when he could understand reasoning just did NOT work. Taking away privileges/toys didn't work either, because he just didn't care because he knew what he wanted and until he got it, nothing else mattered. It wasn't because I didn't pay attention to him, it wasn't because I didn't spend time with him. I was a SAHM, we spent all day every day together playing and reading and what-not. It didn't work because that is his personality. I had to occasionally use spanking to get him to realize some things just shouldn't be done. When I did have to spank him, I didn't just haul off and spank. There was a process to it, a process that helps them understand why you are doing it and keeps them from fearing you. If you don't know about that process, then you shouldn't be spanking.

And how are we now? I am as close to both of my children as a Mother can be. Neither of them get spanked because they are old enough to understand reason, and they know the things they are not supposed to do. They are very well behaved boys and not at all scared of me.

I did not fail as a parent because I spanked my child. I would have, however, failed as a parent if I had kept trying the same things over and over again, the same things that FAILED over and over again, expecting a different outcome. It's like watching the same movie expecting a different ending. Doesn't happen.

As long as spanking is used sparingly and certain rules are followed, spanking can be very effective on the extremely spirited child. But you have to know how to appropriately use spanking. Unfortunately, too many parents don't get that kind of information.

"He refused to sit in time out, and I refused to tie him to the chair." I can definitely relate to that one, however instead of so much as thinking about tying him to the chair, I sit in a chair or on a couch myself, with him in my lap, and I hold him like a hug around his waist & calmly talk to him. Sure, he HATES time out, hates it when I do that to him but I just let him throw a fit & when he calms down to a reachable level, I talk to him in words he understands & we talk it out. Once I see that he understands what he did wrong & why he's in time out, he says sorry, I accept his apology, he gives me a hug & I hug him back, then he is off to play again. Simple, easy peasy.

"I would have, however, failed as a parent if I had kept trying the same things over and over again, the same things that FAILED over and over again, expecting a different outcome. It's like watching the same movie expecting a different ending. Doesn't happen." Spoken like a true mother. =) Very well said. :D :D :D

Holding my son in a time out wouldn't work. He would kick and flail and scream bloody murder. OMG it was horrible! I was convinced someone would call Children's Services on me. I'm glad that works for your son, but sometimes it just doesn't work for others. Of COURSE I would say that is optimal to spanking, good normal parents don't LIKE to spank their child and we will exhaust everything we can before we get to that. But sometimes, it just doesn't work.

If you like spanking your child, you have bad issues. Like...BAD issues.

I forgot to say....I got a black eye and a bloody, swollen lip while attempting that method with my youngest son. That's why I decided it wasn't going to work and quit doing it. Not that he MEANT to hurt me, but that's just what happened when we tried that. You get funny looks when someone asks what happened and you tell them your two year old did it. They look at you like you have a psycho on your hands. lol

lol I know exactly what you mean!!! My son throws his body around when he's sitting on my lap during his time out, & I've been popped in the face a time or 2 with the back of his head. I guess it's not just the time out that I am trying to excercise as discipline. I want him to see that he's by putting himself in situations that call for discipline, he involves me too & not only does it effect him but it effects me as well.

If he realizes that with the time outs you issue, that's great. Unfortunately with my son, it didn't work that way. To him, it just didn't equate. It wasn't until I started utilizing spanking and he could see that spanking him did hurt me (not physically, but it did make me sad and he could see that) that he started realizing, "Hey, this affects Mommy, too". I only really had to spank him a few times, never more than once for the same offense. And now? He's probably the sweetest boy I have ever known. So very loving and caring and empathetic towards others. Not the "scarred for life" that some would have you believe would happen when you spank.

right, you probably got lucky, looks like you did. congrats.
the point is you didnt know you would be lucky. that's how luck works

I wonder if mommy showed those emotions that affected him, without the spanking, would the same results have been achieved? who knows

"If you don't know about that process, then you shouldn't be spanking." Again, I couldn't agree with you more. Thank you for sharing this.

"If you are spanking your child ALL THE TIME, there are other issues you need to take care of. But if, once in a while, you spank your child because they have done something VERY VERY wrong, and you only use spanking limitedly, you don't fail as a parent. PERIOD." I agree. =)

"Stop being so judgmental just because someone does something YOU don't think should be done. You don't have to do it with your child, GREAT! Not all of us are so lucky." Fucking aye, cry me a river. I don't want to say that I am trying to be judgemental (& I'm not trying to be judgemental toward anyone here specifically, just incase you didn't catch that before), but damn I don't mind standing up & saying that I think that spanking is fucking RETARDED. If that is judgemental then wow, who really gives a flying french fry? What's it to you?


"SPANKING = FAIL AS PARENTS" Ok, so ya I went a little over board in my last post, I didn't really mean it like that. It was just typed and entered into my computer as a "heat of the moment" sort of thing. Spanking doesn't = failure as a parent. I still think it's retarded though, anyway you look at it.

My son can be a fucking devil child like you wouldn't believe but damn if I ever lay a hand on him to discipline him unless he's done something to harm himself or another person. Give me a break seriously. Spanking is so outdated!!! "Boy, don't make meh come in thurr n' bend u over mah knee!!!" Paleeease.. whatcha gona do when the spanking tactic stops being effective? Spank them harder and harder until your hand goes numb & then you break it? LMAO!!! Wow, yeah that sure shows em who's boss!!! What's next? Maybe swat em' on the butt with a paddle? Maybe a spatula from your kitchen? I'm not saying that it would go that far but I have known parents who have taken it much further than the original "spanking" method after realizing that spanking wasn't good enough.

Not all parents spank for the purpose of TEACHING their child right from wrong... quite a few parents who I have seen 1st hand, "spank" their child did it for the sake of VENTING. We sometimes find peace in punching a bag when we're upset, maybe hitting a pillow, when we were kids and we use to fight with a sibling or a fellow classmate some of us would slap the other person to make ourselves feel better. Same concept, in SOME cases of spanking.

" quite a few parents who I have seen 1st hand, "spank" their child,

When it comes to spanking for the reasons you mentioned, those are wrong. There comes a point where you should realize (and any normal, intelligent adult will realize it) spanking OBVIOUSLY isn't working, so therefore something ELSE needs to be done. I don't for one SECOND agree that if spanking isn't working, do it harder. That's just wrong and at that point it becomes abuse. Completely. IMO, if you've spanked your child for the same offense three times and it hasn't worked, obviously spanking isn't going to work so you should try something else. If you feel you've exhausted all your options, talking to a shrink might be a good idea. Some might say three times isn't enough to determine if it's going to be effective, but if getting swatted on the behind is going to work at all, it will work before the third swat. If it doesn't work by then, there are underlying issues that you need to figure out.

I once spanked my son hard enough it hurt me (my hand). I'll admit (ashamedly) it was out of anger and frustration. That was the first time I ever spanked him. I think it hurt me more than it hurt him. It was at that point I decided that if I was actually going to use spanking, it could not be while I was angry at him for doing what he did. I had to take my own time out to cool off. And all spankings after that were not done when I was angry. And I certainly don't believe in spanking with anything other than your own hand. And not bare-bottom either. But to spank harder and harder and harder when it clearly isn't working IS bad parenting. Like I said above, if you have to spank them more than three separate times for the same offense, it's not going to work on them and you need to move on to something else. And since I don't believe spanking should be done until you've already exhausted everything else, you find yourself in quite a conundrum at that point. lol

"So I guess EVERYONE in this thread FAILS as a parent for some reason or another"

-Absolutely
the proof is in the world you live in
it's extremely violent
violence doesnt solve problems, it creates them.
Its about educating people. Advancing. Evolving into a more civilized people.
Children are the future. Teach them love. Not violence is okay when mommy & daddy do it.

Tell me, when you did this process of a spanking. because you tried to force them to sit here, or you took away this, that, and the other. You didnt say you would offer him rewards, i'm sure you must have tried that. He wanted his way, good, he is a child let him enjoy that, and give him his way. what was it, he wanted a toy? Sweet, make a deal, I'll buy you the toy, but you'll have to sweep the kitchen for me, or w/e. make deals.

But I am curious about this whole process of spanking, please tell me if it went a little something like this: whipping

You want me to answer your final question, type it out. My speakers aren't working.

Before I became a Mom, I had child education and child development classes. I also had parenting classes. When I say I exhausted everything before utilizing spanking, rest assured I exhausted EVERYTHING before utilizing spanking. Children shouldn't always get what they want, even if it is as simple as a toy. And if that is how you plan on parenting, I shudder to think of how your children are going to be.

I also don't believe in offering rewards to change behavior because that has EXTREME potential to cause the child to grow up thinking that if someone wants something from them, they have to be rewarded to do it. Or if they do something good, they will always be rewarded (totally NOT how it works in real life), and if they don't get rewarded for something later on in life, they throw the adult equivalent of a temper tantrum. Sorry, but rewards are not a good idea if, in the long run, you don't want them thinking they should be rewarded for every good deed they do.

There's a huge difference between rewarding a child for good behavior & bribing them to be good or obey. I don't bribe my son to be good. Once he complies, I reward him for it (without him knowing before hand). =) Do you think that I am enabling him by doing so?

It's a very close call. It's not as problematic as saying "If you are good I'll get you this", but it can still be a problem because children are actually QUITE intuitive and eventually figure out "Hey, Mommy gives me a reward/what I want when I do something good/what I'm told", so it does still have the potential for him to learn that he gets rewarded, and depending on the personality of the child (and their personality as they grow) it could turn into him thinking that as he is an adult he should get rewarded for that good behavior. It is a VERY fine line when it comes to actual physical rewards.

Most parents don't "wean" their child off of the reward system, which is why it does have potential to become a big problem. I think that if you are using this method to help him, (and keep in mind I don't know how old he is) once he reaches a certain age you should stop consistently rewarding him and start teaching him that good behavior in itself is the reward.

In the real world if you want to get something, you have to work for it. That is your reward, your paycheck. do a good job and you might even get a raise.

I cant type out what's on that audio. It would lose it's shocking harsh truth

Well then I guess I can't answer your question. But if it is that shocking, chances are great it's not how it should be done, and not how I do it.

BTW, I don't whip my child either (based on what you called the link). My child got spanked once (as in when they got a spanking, we counted to one and it was done), NOT bare bottomed (nor only underwear/diaper....they were fully clothed), and not with anything other than my hand. I hope that answers even just a small part of what you wanted to know.