Okay, I have a question for ya. We are all sinners, yes? We are all born to sin. Well, who decides what sin is worse than any other sin? You obviously believe that everyone sins. Why is your sin any better than any other sin?

Where did I say it was? Nowhere.

Interesting.

I won't quote the whole thing, but...

Once again, it is not the predisposition that is the sin (consider: ALL humans are predispositioned for sin),

OMG...my statement was to THIS PART: Why is your sin any better than any other sin?

Where did I say my sin was better than any other? Nowhere. Not in any place. ANd yet there you go again, assuming that's what I said. Stop reading between the lines or adding things that you want to add in order to create an argument.

I didn't say any sin was any better or worse than any other sin. ALL SIN IS EQUAL. Period.

Done.

And that is why sin is so subjective. I don't feel that my actions (which, I live by if I don't harm anyone, then I'm doing things right) would cause a child to be born with Down's or Autism.

And I get that, but that is because you do not believe in the same things I do. Within my set of beliefs, sin is not subjective. THAT is the angle in which I was speaking to KJVMan. But you can't expect me to just toss my beliefs to the side simply because you don't believe them. I haven't ONCE asked you to stop believing what you believe. Had I been talking to you about what sin is, I would have expected your reactions. But because I was speaking to someone who is a Christian as I am and thus has beliefs that are based on the Bible, I didn't expect you to just jump in and start attacking. But you did. You see it as if it doesn't hurt anyone, it's not a sin. I see it as my GOD said it is a sin and therefore it is.

And while I disagree with your beliefs as far as what sin is or is not, I don't attack your beliefs and the reason you have them, I would appreciate the same respect. While it's true I believe acting on homosexual tendencies is a sin, have you ONCE seen me attack homosexuals or deny them any of the civil rights everyone else gets?

And once again, I do not believe it is any one sin in particular that causes genetic disorders. I believe it is sin in general, as a whole. I believe that without sin, we wouldn't have genetic disorders. Since you do not believe in sin the same way I do, I don't expect you to agree with me. But that is how *I* view sin based on MY beliefs.

I also haven't once said that without homosexuality we wouldn't have genetic disorders, and yet that is how you turned it around to try to make it look like what I said.

When is my sin any different than any one else's. I will give you an honest answer. When I start to try to tell you that it is no longer a sin and it is perfectly acceptable. That is why there is a difference in this case. I don't hear anyone saying that murder is not a sin, that rape is not a sin, or even gluttony for that matter, but we are absolutely barraged with the idea that homosexuality is acceptable, a reasonable alternative for some etc. When I justify my sin then you can call me out on it and point me back to my note here.

Before God all sin equals death.

You never actually replied back to your initial question, and I'm curious to know your thoughts on my response.

My main problem with this debate is not that I'm not "winning" by changing your mind on sin and how you feel about homosexuality. I'm never going to do that. And that was never my intention. My problem is that you both feel that your own beliefs is the be-all-end-all to it. You don't really for a moment stop to consider "Hey, maybe someone else may have a valid point." I've read all of your responses thoroughly and with an open mind. All you can tell me is that it is sinful. I, respectfully decline that though process. I have tried giving alternative reasons as to how homosexuality is a natural thing, and shouldn't be condemned or demonized. And you both have basically told me that modern science is wrong. If that is your decision, that is fine. But, I gotta say, I may not be perfect, but I don't think me or my brother, or my best friend, or a friend i've known for almost ten years, and the other (and i know a lot) gay people in my life are sending us to hell in a hand basket.

My father works for a maximum security prison. He's told me stories of how some of the inmates act. That is "sin." Some of those stories are sick and twisted. I don't think the people in my life really negatively affect yours, so I would really appreciate it if you would consider for a moment how hateful and inconsiderate your feeling are against homosexual people. It is really hurtful.

You must really think I am a callous bastard don't you? Do you really think I never considered the feeling of being gay? I have and while I can understand that what I say might bring pain that is not the intention however that being said I cannot find it in my good conscience to essentially lie to you and say everything is acceptable and all things are okay if they do NOT hurt someone else.

One of the problems that I believe we have here in communicating our ideas may steam from our differences on what our standards of goodness are. I am quite sure that if I were to compare you to some of the other people I know and grade you on your life you would probably fair well because I am comparing you to others who like the both of us are not perfect and make mistakes etc. If I apply that standard does being gay seem to have the same sense of immorality and evil for lack of a better word than the murderer, the rapist, the armed robber. No! Certainly not, however when I deal with a subject matter I am not looking at things from a human standpoint where I look at a mans goodness compared to other but rather to the standards of which God applies.

For the sake of argument let us look briefly at the standard to which my world view is based.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23 NASB)

As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY." (1 Peter 1:14-16 NASB)

Here we see God calls us to be like HIM.............Holy, righteous and without spot or blame. That is a high standard and in fact ultimately we know that none of us reach this standard yet all sin to God according to his Word is equally detestable. before his eyes. So when I say that something is wrong, sin, or immoral I am speaking to Gods standard not human standards. My sin before God is equally detestable so I am certainly not innocent in any sense of the word.

My point of the original question I asked and to be honest wasn't really answered dealt with the issue of whether what I believe is important or whether what I believe is true? Quite frankly if what we believe is found to later not be true then we as a people have to deal with the consequences of being wrong. The question dealt with the very real truth that what we believe needs to be true before we can deal with how it is important to us personally. While the scenario played out with the judge you would have been found guilty before the law that you may have even been completely ignorant of or didn't believe it should have been a law.

Personally I don't have real issues with homosexuals. I work with them and have never been accused of being hostile or treating them different in any way shape or form. I do believe that they believe that they have no choice and I sincerely believe that many of them do seek real love and real commitment and that being said I do understand and feel for the cause that they have however when I am asked whether or not it is sin I cannot then turn my back on my faith and God and say it is acceptable before God, no more than I can or should accept my own sin. Obedience to God is not found when we agree with Him, it happens when we don't agree or question what He tells us and we then follow his words.

I hope this makes some sense and can be the launching pad to some more respectful conversation.

It's really pointless to continue with her. It truly is. She doesn't give a damn why we believe what we believe. We're just supposed to drop our beliefs and who we believe in and the WHYS of what we believe in order to accomodate her feelings on it, while she can just sit there and tell us our beliefs aren't valid.

Apparently you DO have to fully accept behavior in order to be truly tolerant and open-minded. If that's the case, then I am perfectly content being considered closed-minded. I believe what my God has told me, and I'm not going to change my mind on that based on someone else's closed-minded arguments.

Goodnight, everyone. I hope if you continue with this "discussion" it's more fruitful. But at this point in time, it's all in vain.

I never told you to drop your beliefs. You may want to re-read the conversation if you thought that was what I was trying to do. I never even said that you were wrong. I just asked you, for a moment, to consider the other side.

And once again, I never accused anyone of being open/closed minded. Someone is getting a bit defensive about it. And well, if you are okay with being closed minded, that is ultimately your decision. Your words, not mine.

Thank you for the thoughtful response. I would like to point out that the vast majority of the conversation today was not aimed towards you. I give respect when I am given it.

First of all, going back to your initial question. I would be found guilty if I robbed a bank and had to stand before a judge. There is no doubt in my mind about that. I worked for a bank a few years ago, and I filled in for a week for a woman in a branch that was shot during a robbery. She was pregnant with twins at the time. I don't believe that she ever returned to that branch. I was quite scared working at that branch, but I needed the money. I know the reality of a bank robbery.

You and I both agree that a bank robbery and sexual orientation are two totally separate things. I would never rob a bank because it is against the law. I don't even go more than 5mph while driving because I don't want to get a ticket. I don't want to suffer the repercussions.

However, the ticket that I would get if I sped, and the prison time I would get if I robbed a bank is something real and tangible that I would not be able to avoid. I wouldn't be immune to those consequences. I don't believe in the consequences of your religion. We both know that we have two separate belief systems, and for sake of argument, let's just say neither of us is more or less right or wrong than the other. You are allowed to have your religion, just as I am allowed to have mine. That is not my concern.

My concern, once again, is the apathetic people. People who, as I said earlier, don't really care either way. They don't necessarily believe that homosexual actions are right, but don't really have a problem with them. Typically they either have a gay friend, family member, neighbor, or acquaintance. These apathetic people are the most dangerous. You know where you stand on your beliefs. These people typically don't. They go to church on Christmas and Easter, and pray when they need the money to fix their car or when someone is sick. They are the ones that get scared when the hardcore Christians demonize homosexuals. They are the ones who, as I've said before, end up letting prop 8 happen. They believe in the consequences. And when they step into that voting booth, or hear some homophobic person bashing someone, they don't think of their friend or family member or neighbor or acquaintance. They remember that a gay person is going to turn everyone gay, and that it wasn't Adam and Steve, and that the kids are all going to turn gay, and that we're all going to get AIDS.

Ultimately, they can't rationalize because of all the hate that has been pumped into them. Not always by hardcore Christians, but also by the media. But that is a whole other rant! ;) And that is when people get hurt.

You obviously can rationalize and realize that they aren't demons out to ruin the world and your religious morals. But there are other people who can't. And it is those people who really, really scare me.

That's so INTERESTING. I'm bi and was naturally left-handed, but my grandpa is old-school and made me switch when I was learning to write! Hmmmmm..... makes you wonder d:

"What's next, the sky isn't blue anymore because Jesus comes in a dream and tells you it is green??"

ROFLMFAO!! This the funniest thing I've read in a long time. Thank you for the laugh...and btw, excellent point! :)

That is just another example of man trying to make his SIN more palatable and shirk the responsiblity of that choice they made to involve themselves in drinking etc.

Well, ladies and gentlemen, you can't get any less educated than that, and here is where I make my exit.

good riddance that is a fact no one forced anyone to drink or do drugs that is a choice and choice has consequences.

Do you understand the word "addiction"?

The body adapts to the alcohol and becomes dependent on it. Serious shit happens when an alcoholic goes through withdrawals.

Once again, I don't think you could get any less educated. The Bible doesn't tell you to ignore the rest of the world and how it works. Perhaps you should give that a try.

Hey ms ignorant how did that happen again...did someone force it upon them...those are the consequences of sin....I doubt you have a clue what the bible teaches if this is your world view

That's Mr., and it doesn't sound to me like YOU have a clue what the Bible teaches, despite the word being in your name, judging by your use of the phrase "consequence of sin". There is no worldly consequence of sin.

That doesn't take away from the fact that the body becomes physically dependent on alcohol.

What no worldly consequence for sin? Are you for real? The Bible is filled with those consequences and ultimately the final consequence for sin which is death and the judgment that is coming upon the world for its rejection of God and the pursuit of evil. Where would you like me to start Genesis Chapter 1?

You're reading the wrong *testament*, brother. The concept of free will can't exist with worldly consequences of sin. The only consequence of sin in judgment.

The wrong testament? I would assume you are saying that we no longer live in the OT and therefore it doesn't apply? I will wait on your response to that first before dwelling into the absolute necessity of knowing both and how they relate in Gods plan from the beginning to the End of this world

who exactly are the right winged, bigoted Christians? make it clear who you're targeting. easy as that ;)

how is that close minded? how in the WORLD is that close minded? if somebody hears what another side has to say, fairly, and then has their opinion about it, how is that close minded? i am a Christian, but i have several gay friends. my boyfriend's brother is gay. they are around me, and i accept them. i accept them as the people they are, their characters, and the values they posses.

just because i don't agree with their lifestyle doesn't make me close-minded. the fact that i don't agree with it means that i, personally and by my own decision, would not include myself in homosexual activity for my personally beliefs. as a Christian, i am attacked for that belief. i do not judge those who are homosexual, because only God can judge and that is what i personally believe. you, ma'am, are close minded for labeling an entire group of people as close-minded. you don't know me, you don't know my family or my struggles. and you might say that you're not targeting me, but you are. i'm a Christian and i take great offense to you saying that Christians are close minded. if you want to target something, target the religion. not its individuals who you don't know.

That is what I've been trying to say...that why is it even an issue? If we can agree that we don't have the same belief system, who cares who "legally" gets married and who doesn't? It has no impact on anyone of any particular faith. Well said Sheri!

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