I don't think it's fair to call all women who have had abortions worthless Moms, Mindi... I take that kind of personal, since I've had an abortion, and I feel that I'm a great Mom. I also, having had an abortion, would definitely not say that it was a free pass.. If you only knew half of what I have went through because of that decision, I think you'd think differently. I think it's important for people, even those who are pro-life and are completely entitled to that opinion (one that I completely understand, also) - to still be conscious of the fact that women who have abortions are not cold, heartless, calculated beings.. Having an abortion was honest-to-god one of the hardest things I've ever went through in my life. It's been 3 years, and it still haunts me.

i hope you don't feel like i was putting you down by saying that i would never get one.
i respect your choice, it's just nothing i would choose for myself.

No, even though I've had an abortion, I try not to take it "personal" when people who are pro-life voice their opinion. I understand, and I can't say that I'm one of the women who has never questioned, regretted or doubted her decision.. I just like to put it out there, that not every woman who has an abortion is heartless, cold, and uncaring. Sometimes it's the only option that we feel like we have, and it SUCKS when it comes down to that.. It was NOT an easy decision for me to make, follow through with, or deal with afterwards. I have had nightmares about it, and have bawled my eyes out for that decision.. I just like to put it out there, that abortion is NEVER an easy decision.

I wasnt calling ALL women who have had an abortion worthless moms. There ARE women who use it as a form of birth control, like a girl who I grew up with who had 7 by the time she was 18, just like ALL fathers who chose to sign away their rights are not deadbeat dads.

I wasn't sure exactly what you were saying, so I just wanted to put it out there for your knowledge. I'm not ashamed of having had an abortion, I don't *like* to talk about it, but I answer questions and stuff. I feel like a lot of people think poorly of women who have had abortions, and I just think that they should sometimes hear how hard it was to come to that decision.

I know a girl, who, by the time she was 21, had had 6 abortions. I agree, that is a bit much and sounds more like birth control.

After the one I had in May 07, I NEVER wanted to put myself in that situation EVER again.

There are women who abuse abortion, just as there would be men who would abuse this as well, but in my opinion, you cannot take away the rights of everyone because some people are shitty people.

Deadbeat my ass. If the father didn't want the child, and the decision to have the child lies solely with the mother, and she has the kid without the father's consent, the father shouldn't have to pay the mother a dime.

by deadbeat, i meant the fathers that walk out. like, they're in a relationship and they agree to have a child and then he leaves.

Oh, then yeah, fuck him.

But how does the decision to have a child lie SOLELY with the Mother? Does the man not have sex also? Does he not contribute 50%? How is it fair, to have unprotected sex and say "Well, I don't want a kid - so if it happens, we'll just abort it.. and if you don't want to abort it, you can keep it and do it 100% on your own" - I mean, I don't see how that's fair.. To me, that's just stupid and trying to get your ass outta paying child support

Simple. The man says he doesn't want to have kids before they have sex, just in case she gets pregnant. According to the OP, she agreed to this as well. There's no side-stepping this -- she fucked him over.

What Mindi said.

I think that every circumstance is different, so making a rule that allows men to get out of having to pay any support to a Mom is not going to work out.

For example, they both have sex and get pregnant - she decides she wants to keep the baby rather than adopt out or abort - and he decides he wants nothing to do with the child, and he signs his rights away. She chose to be "responsible" and take care of that child, and he gets a free pass to walk away...? I don't see how, in any situation, that is fair. =\

Regardless, if the guy didn't want to be a Dad, he should've been more careful. He could've used condoms, etc. That's just the way it is.

But if he wants to be responsible and have the child the mom can choose to get a free pass and walk away, how is that fair?

I think it's fair because the women ultimately has to go through everything, whereas the man does not. We are the ones who have to nurture and carry that child, we are the ones who have to go through LOTS of medical expenses to have a child, and we are ultimately the ones who have to give birth to a child. I think it makes things, unfortunately for that man, a little lopsided. I am one of the type of women that says, until a man can grow and birth a child without the use of my uterus, he has no right to tell me what I should do with anything in my body. I do acknowledge that there are men who would prefer for a woman NOT to have an abortion, and would prefer to keep the child - but I also acknowledge what that woman has to go through. If it were a quick, 2-3 week run of pregnancy and then aww, there's a cute baby, here, you can have it... that'd be different. 9 months is a long time if you don't want to do something.

Which, again, is why I think safe sex is important. If you're careful, the chances of this happening to you are smaller than if you have unprotected sex.

I look at pregnancy as much much different. It isnt MY child, it isnt MY pregnancy, the father of that child is involved as well, he has choices when it comes to me. If he doesnt want the child, then he can sign off when it comes to me and the child, I will not expect child support, nor will I expect him to be involved. Its lopsided because he isnt pregnant, BUT during pregnancy women have the choice to not go through that, they can even put the child up for adoption without consenting the father. How is that okay? Its not. Women want to be treated as equal, that means no double standards on either side of the coin in any situation in my opinion.

Right, and I can understand that situation if you're married, then it becomes "OUR child".. "OUR pregnancy".. etc.
I just don't think that a man should be able to have sex, and "oops" up - and the woman says, well, I want to keep the baby..and he says, I don't.. and he gets away with no child support, no obligation to this child at all.

But the difference is the woman can do that ALL THE TIME. Whenever she wants, she has no responsibility if she doesnt want it, but the man only has one line of protection and if that fails, oh well, sucks for him.

But there are many who are fighting to take away that right from a woman.. to make the only option for her to be adoption or parenting. We're sitting here arguing about the fairness of how a man has no choice, and how it's not okay that he doesn't have that choice etc... but yet that is exactly what pro-lifers want.. to take away that option for women.

But that right is being upheld and as long as women have that right men need that right as well. I am pro-life in my own life. I would never have an abortion, unless it was discovered that me giving birth to that child would kill me, BUT I dont have the right to decide that for other women. Period. The Supreme Court and the law agrees with me at this point, so why shouldnt men have that right as long as women have it? Because some men will abuse that right? Women abuse abortion every day but you arent saying it should be illegal are you? No, because it isnt your place to say that. Its not like he could abort his rights after the baby is here, unless the woman fails to tell him then he has 30 days to make that decision. The woman can give her child up for adoption much later then 30 days after having a baby, so 30 days for a man is still less then what the women gets.

I guess I tend to be more on the "Screw him, he should pay" side of the fence because I've dealt with deadbeats, and I've heard every excuse in the book.

My daughter's Dad and I were so young, I was 14 and he was 16.. We had sex, unprotected, and then broke up... fast forward to a few months later, I find out I'm pregnant. As soon as I confirmed it with a DR, I told him. He claimed he wanted the baby, didn't want me to get an abortion, etc. etc.. Fast forward to a few years later, my daughter is now almost 9, the SOB owes over 10,000 in child support and hasn't seen her since 06, and has NEVER saw her on a regular basis... I wish it would've been an option for him to give up his rights legally, because now, in order for him to lose his rights I'm going to have to pay $$$$ to get an attorney to do it for me so that my Husband can adopt her. It's shitty.

It's also shitty the way the system works. It does favor women instead of men, and I can't disagree with anyone when they say that.

Except if they BOTH agreed to not have a child beforehand, and she changed her mind one day without letting him know, he shouldn't have anything to do with paying child support.

Right. I agree with that. I'm saying that the same can't be said for ALL circumstances - because you WILL get the deadbeat types who will say "Man, I told that girl I didn't want no kids before we had sex..." and will lie just to avoid having to take care of a child.

Is it his sperm? Then he has to pay, plain and simple. She didn't MAKE it herself, so why should she have to pay for it herself? And before anyone says "Well, she could have tricked him! She knew he didn't want kids!"... That's where *responsibility* comes into play. You are supposed to know your partner and what kind of person they are before you try to get into their pants. If you want to take the gamble of not knowing whether or not he/she is an underhanded scumbag like that, fine. But you have to accept the consequences when you find out later that they are.

Agreed!!!!