That should have said 'be in pain if you DON'T have to be' ;)

Oh no no I wasn't saying that you said it wasn't possible ;D
I was kinda half asleep when I wrote that to be honest :x
I don't even remember what I was even getting at with that, my apologies!

But I do completely agree, I for one am quite certain I'll be getting an epidural when the time comes for that!
I think some women just want to have a baby the way their grandmothers/great-grandmothers had them, you know? Like with no drugs.
I remember someone in my family referring to epidural's as "the easy way out" ;D like it was a bad thing or something.

I was sitting there thinking, "well no shit!"

No pain is much better than being in agony for hours. :P

i had an epidural and it speed up my labor. i got it when i was 5 cm dialated and an hour after having it i was dialated fully..despite it taking me 12 hours to get to a 5..my baby was born within minutes later..i pushed twice for her to come out and once for the placenta. so in my case the epidural helped progress my labor and i didnt need forceps, vacuum extraction or anything. i did have a small episiotomy tho..

As much as I'm in support of epidurals, I doubt the epidural directly helped progress your labour. It was more likely just a coincidence. It probably did help you relax though, and it's possible it made it easier for you to push her out if you were comfortable and less exhausted.

I was going to say the same thing. I've read from several sources that epidurals tend to drastically slow labor.

To be fair, while I don't agree with obstetricians or midwives pushing a woman to have an epidural if she doesn't want one, your friend probably was exhausted, and at high risk for a forceps/ventouse delivery anyway. Still, if she didn't want an epidural she shouldn't have been pushed into it (although it sounds as if it had more to do with her husband than the doctors).

In the UK, virtually everyone is looked after by a midwife via their GP. People with problems go to hospital and have their care split between a midwife and an obstetrician. As a rule, if you see the obstetrician, there's a midwife in there as well.

I haven't given birth yet, I'll let you know when I do!

With my first, I had to go two weeks over because they didn't want to induce me. So when the time came, I went into to be induced at 14 days past my due date. The first method of induction they used was the foley bulb. They forced it into my cervix, filled it with water, and stretched open my cervix. It was NOT fun. That didn't do anything to get labor going. The second method they used was to break my water. That didn't do anything either. So finally they hooked me up to pitocin and finally got the ball rolling. Needless to say, after 27 hours of labor, my body arrested at a 9 and my daughter's heart rate was dropping, so I had an emergency c-section.

I've watched the documentary and I can see that everything they talked about happened at my delivery. For a long time I was very upset about my birthing experience. I still look back and I'm disappointed, but I don't have the guilt associated with it anymore. I always felt like "Why couldn't I do something that was so natural to most women?" I realize now that I had NO control and pretty much the hospital was running their own agenda.

With my second we had a scheduled c-section because my husband was in Iraq, and it was just easier to schedule the birth for when he was home. Plus, I wasn't educated about VBAC and all the things I know now. I can't change how it all happened, but it wasn't ideal at all.

I saw that documentary and I really appreciated it. A lot of women in the U.S. regret their birthing experiences. I'm pregnant now (due in May) and I'm learning as much as I can about natural childbirth...or at least ways to minimize the interventions as much as possible. My insurance doesn't cover midwifery care (MAJOR women's healthcare problem right there!), so I'm paying out of pocket to have a birth doula present. I felt this was a good compromise and I feel like I'll have someone there at the hospital to advocate for me.

A REALLY good book that I just finished is called "Ina May's Guide to Childbirth" by Ina May Gaskin. Ina May is a famous American midwife and her book is PACKED with excellent information. I'm reading it again in case I missed anything. You can probably find the book at your library.

i think having a doula is a fab idea! i wish i could have had one to speak for me as my husband's first language is spanish and he couldn't remember anything anyway! and nor could i at the time!

I'm British, and I've never given birth, but I do work in anaesthetics, and so I'm often the person putting the epidural in. I have to admit I'm shocked by some of the stories I've read on here, particularly by Americans. I've never seen an obstetrician rush to do a caesarian section unless it was really necessary (if anything, sometimes we think they wait too long), nor have I ever known a midwife to try and push a women into having an epidural.

Also as someone who regularly sees the before and after with an epidural, I am sure I will want one when I do give birth one day. The women I've put epidurals in are always so grateful. They go from being in absolute agony (often far worse than they were expecting) to being relaxed and comfortable. And they usually think I'm wonderful. :)

The midwives I work with are also extremely good, and I am very glad that I live in a country where women are cared for my midwives during their labour. I can't believe that in the US babies are only delivered by obstetricians! Personally, I'd rather have my baby delivered by a midwife than by an obstetrician (if that's possible). However, I would only ever want to give birth in a hospital, not only because there's anaesthetists to do an epidural, but also paediatricians and a neonatal unit. I used to work in neonates and I've seen some seemingly straightforward deliveries go horribly wrong. Also, as an anaesthetist in obstetrics, I've seen women almost bleed to death due to complications of labour. So to me, giving birth anywhere other than a hospital would be putting mine and by baby's life at unnecessary risk. But that's just me, and I have a slightly different perspective on this than many women.

"I've never seen an obstetrician rush to do a caesarian section unless it was really necessary (if anything, sometimes we think they wait too long)"
that doesn't make sense to me. Maybe Im misunderstanding but you are saying American docters rush to do a c-section that isn't necessary, but then you say if anything they wait too long to do it..im confused.

But anyways, I love going to a obgyn, I would never go to a midwive just because I know they do not know as much or have as much education as a obgyn.

I actually don't agree . . midewives and doulas know just as much/and more than obgyns do when it comes to birth. . . plus it's a lot more personal and relaxed. . . i mean i'm sounding kind of contradictive because i'm using an obgyn, but he's been my doctor for 3 years and i trust him personally, and i'm in hawai'i on a teeny tiny island where most drs aren't good and the only midwives are on the other side of the island which is a 2.5 hour drive, so i dont have much choice. . . but this is why every woman needs to see the business of being born....... it helps educate women on midwives and hospitals. . . i dont mean any of this as a personal attack on you at all by the way, so please don't take offense.

Umm... yes, I think you misunderstood. I thought I was actually quite clear in what I said. I said I've NEVER seen a doctor rush to do a caesarian. But I've read other people on here with stories of their (usually American) doctors rushing to do a caesarian. Which is totally the opposite of my experience.

No, midwives do not have the same education as an obstetrician/gynaecologist (although here they do attend university for 3 years to train), but they're actually MORE specialised that obs/gyns. Because midwives are trained ONLY in the care of women during pregnancy, labour, and after delivery. And here midwives actually deliver far more babies than obstetricians, so they actually have even more experience than obstetricians in dealing with deliveries. Obstetricians are better at dealing with problematic deliveries (forceps, caesarians etc). Plus obs/gyns are trained in much much more than delivery, so of course their education is longer. As someone who works with midwives and obstetricians, I would prefer to have a midwife deliver my baby (unless there was complications) than an obstetrician. But I'd have to be in a hospital with obstetricians nearby in case there was problems.

I think your last sentence is exactly the sort of ignorance Lauren describes below in American culture.

How is it ignorant to say obgyn's have more education than midwives when you said it yourself? Just because someone is only specialized in one field doesn't mean that they know more than someone who is trained in a broader range. That's like one person saying I know more about "this and that" because you are trained in "this and that" + "something else". That makes no sense.

The ignorance is in the assumption that a longer education = knowing more, or that a longer education means obstetricians must be better at delivering babies. The fact is midwives who have delivered thousands of babies have more experience than an obstetrician who has maybe only done a few hundred normal deliveries. Personally I'd want the one who is more experienced. And when it comes to having knowledge on labour and delivery, midwives know just as much (if not more) than obstetricians. Yes, obstetricians know the technicalities of carrying out a caesarian section... they know how to diagnose and manage gynaecological problems such as PCOS and infertility. But as far as a normal delivery goes... I don't want the person who has a wide knowledge of obstetrics and gynaecology... I want the person who has the most experience in delivering babies.

Not to mention midwives give more personal care and stay with a woman throughout her labour constantly caring for her and her unborn child. An obstetrician can never provide that kind of attention, as they have too many patients.

And it makes perfect sense that if a person trains in one 'speciality' so to speak that they will probably know that speciality better than someone who has trained in several. For example, I know more about anaesthetics than someone at the same stage career wise as me who has trained in anaesthetics AND emergency medicine, because my experience has been exclusively in anaesthetics. What really makes no sense is you suggesting that specialisation makes no sense. ;D

But who is to say that every midwive has delivered more babies than every obgyn. Not every midwive has delievered thousands. Im just saying it all depends on the individual. In my opinion someone who has studied longer will know more. Hands on experience is a great thing, but doesn't make up for educational facts.

The whole thing about specialities is it doesn't matter if you are trained in several different fields are not, some people hold a higher threshold for knowledge than others. Specialisation makes sense to me, Im just saying that it doesn't mean they know more about their speciality than someone who is trained in other fields as well. It all depends on the individual.

I just feel in better hands with a obgyn. Others might feel differently, doesn't mean I am wrong or they are wrong. Different personalities, different priorities, different people. To each their own.

In the UK, if you compare midiwves with obstetricians who have been working the same number of years (as obviously you get junior midwives, just as you get junior obstetricians), the midwife will almost certainly have delivered many more babies than the obstetrician, as that is what they do every day (here, where most babies are delivered by midwives). They don't spend half their time in surgery or in clinic, like obstetricians do.

Believe me, as a doctor, experience counts for A LOT. I went to med school for 5 years... I've been training in anaesthetics for a year and a half. I have SO much more to learn, but that knowledge will not come from books or lectures. It will come from experience (mostly at least, I still have exams to pass too!). So no, someone who has studied longer will NOT automatically know more. Not without the experience to go along with it.

It's clearly very different in the UK. And I'm not going to be able to change the American anti-midwives ignorance single handedly. I've tried to explain it to you, but since you can't understand it, I'll stop trying. It's difficult anyway when that attitude is obviously so prevalent in the US. I'm just glad I live in the UK where I can have my baby delivered by an extremely experienced and knowledgable midwive who looks after ONLY me during my labour in a hospital, with an epidural, in a hospital with obstetricians should there be any problems. And I don't have to pay for it. :)

What is ignorant is thinking that your opinion is fact. I prefer an obgyn, you prefer a midwife. That is just different people, different preferences. If I didn't have an obgyn I probably wouldn't have a 19 month old daughter right now. I had a car wreck at 8 months pregnant, pre-term labor, and all kinds of sickness that required prescription medicine (bronchitis, stomach viruses, etc.) while I was pregnant. While midwives are specialized in labor & delivery they are not trained to handle anything out of the "ordinary" in pregnancy (at least in the U.S. they are not).My firm belief is their is no "ordinary" or "normal" pregnancy. Every pregnancy is different. I would rather be in the care of someone who could handle everything as it arose, not have to send me to another person I didn't know or know anything about me to handle something.

*sigh* In the UK it IS fact that midwives will have delivered more babies than an obstetrician who has been working as long. It is not opinion, but fact. No ignorance involved. Just as it is fact that knowledge is nothing without experience. Any doctor or nurse (or midwife) will tell you that. Unfortunately some members of the public have the misconception that having a lot of knowledge makes someone a good caring professional. Believe me, it doesn't. Some of the worst doctors I've ever met had have VAST amounts of knowledge. Ultimately you need both knowledge and experience.

I never at any point suggested that you personally should have used a midwife. I just disagreed with your generalisation that obstetricians are better than midwives at delivering babies. I have said all along that I was referring to uncomplicated deliveries, which clearly yours was not. And even here, a women with your issues would have had more obstetrician involvement than a woman having an uncomplicated delivery (and in fact each woman here is also registered with an obstetrician... but when they arrive in hospital they are usually cared for by a midwive, unless there are complications and an obstetrician needs to be called). I would never for one second suggest that your other problems could be managed exclusively by a midwife. That would be ridiculous.

Does an obstetrician in the US stay with you throughout your labour? Are they there every minute caring for you? I very much doubt it. That kind of care can only be provided by a midwive. So if you prefer intermittent care by an obstretrician, to the constant care a midwife provides, that is of course your choice.

Are you guaranteed that YOUR obstetrician will be the one delivering your baby anyway? Are they in the hospital 24 hours a day? Do they never go on holiday? Here there is always several obstetricians on call for the labour ward (ranging from the most junior to senior), if a labour requires obstetrician involvement, it will be the oncall obstetrician, who may, or may not be the woman's own obstetrician.

(And I think you meant 'there', not 'their') And there IS such a thing as an uncomplicated delivery. 'Normal', probably not, but there is definitely a difference between an uncomplicated and complicated delivery.

And not even these amazing obstetricians you talk of can deal with EVERYTHING! Otherwise there would be no need for anaesthetists on the labour ward. ;) I can't remember if you said if you had an epidural or not. But if you did, I'll bet it was put in by an anaesthetist, and I'd be very surprised if it was someone you already knew.

HAHA - UR SUTCH AN IGGNORRUNT DOKTER, REDD FRAGGUL! HOW DAIR U KONTAMINATE THIS KONVO WITH REEL DOKTER FAKTS!

HEHE - SERIOUSLY, RED FRAG IS TOTALLY CORRECT THAT IT IS THE NURSES WHO ARE FAR MORE EXPERIENCED IN THIS AREA. PERSONALLY, IF I WERE GIVING BIRTH, I'D MUCH RATHER TO HAVE SOMEONE WITH THE PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE THAN SOMEONE WITH ALL THE ACADEMIC KNOWLEDGE. HELPING SOMEONE GIVE BIRTH IS NOT THE SAME AS GIVING SOMEONE BRAIN SURGERY!

THE SAME HAPPENS IN MENTAL HEALTH - SO MANY CASES OF PSYCHIATRISTS WHO ARE SCARED OF THE PATIENTS, WHILE THE ACTUAL NURSES (WHO WORK WITH THESE PATIENTS CLOSELY EVERY DAY) DEAL WITH THEM MUCH BETTER. DOCTORS AND NURSES HAVE DIFFERENT ROLES AND DIFFERENT SKILLZ.

AND NOTE THAT RED FRAGGLE IS HERSELF A DOCTOR, SO SHE IS DEFENDING THE 'ENEMY' SO TO SPEAK HERE! HAHA - I SEE SO MUCH DOCTOR V. NURSE ENMITY!

Although I should correct what you've said slightly... more recently trained midwives in the UK are ONLY midwives and not general nursing trained (although they used to have to train as nurses first, so the older ones have trained in both nursing and midwifery). Personally that's my only complaint about midwives... I think general nursing training should be compulsory. I feel the same should go for psych nursing, but that has also changed in recent years, so psych nurses don't have to do general nursing training anymore. It was noticable when I worked in psych... the ones who had a tendancy to panic when something appeared to be medically (rather than psychiatrically) wrong with a patient were the newer ones who had no general nursing experience.

Again, it's the experience which counts. :)

DOESN'T THE TRAINING INVOLVE A YEAR OF GENERAL NURSING, WHERE TRAINEE NURSES DO PLACEMENTS IN ALL AREAS? I KNOW THAT'S NOT VERY MUCH THOUGH. WHEN I WORKED IN MENTAL HEALTH, THE OLDER NURSES HAD HAD FULL GENERAL TRAINING BEFORE SPECIALISING.

IT'S A SHAME THAT NURSES DON'T HAVE MORE KNOWLEDGE IN ALL AREAS, BECAUSE WHEN I WORKED IN LEARNING DISABILITIES, AND WE HAD A CLIENT WHO GOT VERY ILL AND HAD TO BE HOSPITALISED, THE NURSES DIDN'T UNDERSTAND HIS COMMUNICATION DIFFICULTIES, AND SEEMED VERY IGNORANT ABOUT LEARNING DISABILITIES. GOSH, IT WAS SO DAFT - HE WAS DIABETIC AND WE TOLD THE NURSES THAT, BUT THEY STILL KEPT GIVING HIM STUFF WITH SUGAR IN IT AND WHEN WE TALKED TO THEM THEY SAID HE HADN'T REFUSED IT OR TOLD THEM HE WAS DIABETIC - WELL, DUH, YO. HE DIDN'T HAVE THE COGNITIVE CAPACITY AND COMMUNICATION SKILLZ TO DO SO. IT WAS SAD - THEY DIDN'T LOOK AFTER HIM PROPERLY AND THEN HE DIED (WELL, HE MAY WELL HAVE DIED ANYWAY, BUT STILL IT WAS SAD THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT LEARNING DISABILITIES TO TREAT HIM BETTER WHILE HE WAS ALIVE).

Yes, the older ones will have had general nursing experience, as British nurses used to have to train generally before specialising in e.g. psych or midwifery, but nowadays psych nursing and midwifery are completely seperate from general nursing training. I guess it's the government trying to get more nurses trained faster and cheaper (they're trying to do the same thing to doctors). So the younger midwives and psych nurses will probably have had no general nursing training. Just as general nurses won't have had any psych training... leading to situations like you describe.

Doctors have to learn a little about all specialities during med school, and I think it should be the same for nurses. I may only have done one week of neurology as a med student... but I could be anaesthetising someone with epilepsy or parkinsons disease, so it makes sense I should have to know a little about them. I think nurses should too, as they equally could be caring for a patient with other illnesses beyong the disease that has put them in hospital.

GOSH, HAS IT CHANGED SO MUCH FROM FIVE YEARS AGO? LIKE BACK WHEN I ALMOST DID PSYCH NURSING, THERE WERE FOUR AREAS YOU COULD GO INTO: ADULTS, PAEDS, LEARNING DIS, OR MENTAL HEALTH. AND MIDWIFERY WAS COMPLETELY SEPARATE. BUT THOSE FOUR AREAS ALL TRAINED TOGETHER FOR THE FIRST YEAR, AND THEN THEY SPECIALISED. DO THEY NOT DO THIS ANY MORE?