For the sake of my sanity... and the fact that i really dont feel like saying what i really think in this matter, cause i would imagine everyone and their dog would be offended... I am just going to say that i am done arguing with religious people. you've all been brainwashed to a point that there is really no point.
Personally, love is acceptance. that acceptance branches off into a deeper group of categories, trust, happiness, security, etc. By telling me that love has anything to do with god, where i don't believe in it, is basically telling me that i don't feel love. And that is just plain dumb. There is a million variants of religion.. and no proof that any of it is right besides the fact that those who believe in whatever they decide makes sense brings them comfort for when they die so that they are less scared. Good for them. People fear something more when theyre unsure. So.. if people want to spend their waking life worrying about that..fine. Ive decided that i would like to go about my life not worrying about it. Ive decided that im not going to spend my waking life telling others that because they're not like me, IE: Homosexuals, that theyre not "allowed" to do the same things everyone else can and that they're "Evil". Personally with the amount of people in the world who are homeless, in foster homes, or in countries where money is a harsh reality, we could use a few gay people to not procreate. They're probably buying us some time to fix all those problems that "god" has chosen to ignore. But he sure does love those north americans doesn't he? Well.. Cept the homeless ones yet again...

anyway im getting off topic here.
My end point is here that i am now unchecking the box that tells me when someone replies and i am going to go about my life accepting anyone who decides to love whoever they want and not waste my life worrying about everyone else. =) but good luck trying to change the world based on a book with no real structure. Toodles.

The fact that you consider the Bible to be "a book with no real structure" speaks volumes of your own ignorance. Even educated secular scholars give the Bible merit as literature, at the very least! Sweeping generalizations about "brainwashed" religious individuals, obscure remarks involving entirely new topics... Yes, I think it would be wise for you to avoid this thread entirely.

The Bible is a wonderful piece of literature and history at the very least. It speaks on thousands of years of culture, life, experience, and history.

There's a course at my (public) university called "Bible as Literature." I never got a chance to take it but it looks very interesting.

*clap clap*

Then why do they condemn us so much for not liking or agreeing with it? It seems to me that people believe that it does ave something to do with us, considering they try their hardest to persuade us that it is right.

YES, BUT THE POINT OF YOUR THREAD WASN'T ABOUT WHETHER SAME-SEX MARRIAGE WAS ETHICAL, YO. IT WAS ABOUT WHETHER IT WAS HYPOCRITICAL FOR THIS WOMAN TO BE THROWN OUT OF THE BEAUTY PAGEANT. AND SO I WAS DRAWING ATTENTION TO HOW BEAUTY PAGEANTS WORK IN GENERAL, AND HOW THEY ARE NOT ABOUT ETHICS OR A STANDARD OF CORRECTNESS, BUT ABOUT WHAT IS POPULAR. SO THERE IS NO STANDARD AGAINST WHICH IT CAN BE JUDGED HYPOCRITICAL. IF YOU WISH TO DISCUSS THE ETHICS OF SAME SEX MARRIAGE, THAT IS A DIFFERENT TOPIC ENTIRELY.

First, it's not *my* thread. I'm not the author. Second, it has everything to do with whether same-sex "marriage" is ethical, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. The entire controversy exists precisely because differences over presuppositional ethics converged, in all places, within a Miss USA contest.

Third, why are you asking for statistics if you're sole purpose in discussing the issue is to bring attention to how pageants are run? What difference does it make? The only reason I brought up the stats is to show that Miss California is more representative of America than people might think.

OH, SOZ, YO - I THOUGHT YOU WERE BROTHER JIM. IF YOU REREAD BROTHER JIM'S OPENING POST IT'S ABOUT HYPOCRISY - ABOUT WHETHER PEOPLE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO STATE THEIR VIEW, REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEIR VIEW IS, YO - HE STATES THAT QUITE CLEARLY. SO IT IS NOT INTENDED TO BE A THREAD ABOUT PEOPLE'S VIEWS ON SAME SEX MARRIAGE, BUT WHETHER PEOPLE'S VIEWS SHOULD AFFECT THEIR CHANCES OF WINNING A BEAUTY PAGEANT. SO THAT IS THE POINT I WAS PERSONALLY ADDRESSING. AND I ASKED ABOUT STATS BECAUSE BRO JIM STATED SOMETHING AS FACT WITHOUT GIVING EVIDENCE. PEOPLE MUST GIVE EVIDENCE FOR WHAT THEY SAY, YO! MY POINT WAS ACTUALLY MORE ABOUT THE HYPOCRISY ISSUE, YO, THAN ABOUT PAGEANTS. I'M CONFUSED WHERE YOU ARE GOING WITH ALL THIS, SO I WILL WAIT FOR BROTHER JIM TO RETURN, AS IT IS HIS THREAD AND I WAS TALKING TO HIM!

"it's still evil and ought to be opposed."
wow. really?
If it's so "evil" then why hasn't the sky fallen over here in Canada?
I can [& will legally] MARRY my SAME SEX PARTNER. It's been legal for several years now & things are going well over here.
The sky hasn't fallen. Things seem to be okay.
I live right on the boarder of Detroit and American citizens actually come over here and get married because here you're not treated as a second class citizen because you're gay.
I pulled the statistics from Prop 8 from http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php?title=California_Proposition_8_(2008)
California Proposition 8
Votes Percentage
Yes 6,838,107 52.3%
No 6,246,463 47.7%
Total votes 13,084,570 100%


Those numbers hardly show a "majority" to me

If it's so "evil" then why hasn't the sky fallen over here in Canada?

Just because the sky hasn't fallen doesn't mean that God's wrath isn't being revealed. In fact, Western society is experiencing God's judgment right now as laid out in Romans chapter 1. Part of God's judgment is giving people over to a reprobate mind...giving them over to their sinful desires to do all sorts of wicked things. That's what we see happening now.

I can [& will legally] MARRY my SAME SEX PARTNER. It's been legal for several years now & things are going well over here.

You may get "married" in the legal sense of the term, but you will never be truly married in the real sense of the term. Just because a legislature decides to legalize same-sex "marriage" doesn't mean that it's actually marriage. In fact, "homosexual marriage" is an oxymoron. A legislature can no more change that than they can change the laws of physics.

Those numbers hardly show a "majority" to me

Then you're ignorant and don't understand the definition of a majority. Just because the vote was relatively close doesn't mean that it wasn't a majority.

God's wrath? really? oh jeeze. This is great.
But let me clear a few things up first.
Your blabber about God & quoting the bible doesn't mean shit to me because I don't believe in god, nor heaven or hell.
So you can quote your "bible" or "God's word" until your blue in the face but its not going to mean anything to me.
I'd honestly love to hear why YOU PERSONALLY think i'm living a sinful life. I don't mean, by quoting the bible or telling me what God thinks or any of that.
Leave god, jesus, the bible, god's word etc out of it & i'd love to hear what you have to say.

"Just because a legislature decides to legalize same-sex "marriage" doesn't mean that it's actually marriage. In fact, "homosexual marriage" is an oxymoron. A legislature can no more change that than they can change the laws of physics."


Oh really? why is this because your "god" doesn't think so?
That might work for you but like i said before, that answer isn't going to work for me.
If i'm going to have every right any heterosexual couple has, as well as unconditional love, support & happiness from my wife I don't see how that is any different.

You don't have to agree. I know that nothing is going to change your views on this & that's okay i can respect that.
I just hope one day you can stop using your bible as an excuse to be a bigot.

Your blabber about God & quoting the bible doesn't mean shit to me because I don't believe in god, nor heaven or hell.

You speak as though I didn't already know this. I'm well aware of the fact that you reject God and His law. I'm perfectly capable of discerning that from your first response. Even so, that does not absolve me from proclaiming the truth of God's word. You made the decision to response to something I wrote, so I'm going to respond accordingly. If you don't want me quoting the Scriptures, then you shouldn't have asked for me opinion. Don't blame me because you don't like the answer you get.

I'm not proclaiming these things because I believe that I can personally convince you of anything. I cannot change the heart of my fellow man, only the Holy Spirit can change hearts. Mankind is sinful and God is holy. The total depravity of mankind makes it impossible for us to come to God on our own. Indeed, no one comes to God unless He first draws us.

I'd honestly love to hear why YOU PERSONALLY think i'm living a sinful life. I don't mean, by quoting the bible or telling me what God thinks or any of that. Leave god, jesus, the bible, god's word etc out of it & i'd love to hear what you have to say.

This doesn't make any sense whatsoever. In other words, you want me to give a politically correct response that doesn't involve me "offending" you and provoking the God-given conscience within you. Sorry, but that's not going to happen. In terms of what I "personally believe" with respect to this issue, I believe in the revealed Word of God and stand by everything I said previously.

But that's not what you're really getting at: you want me to abandon my faith, reject my beliefs, and compromise my values so that you can *personally* feel better about your sexual sin. Not gonna happen. I'm a Christian and I will respond based upon my presuppositions and worldview. Something tells me that if I were not a Christian, then you wouldn't be asking me to give up my beliefs in order to respond. It's funny to me that homosexuals complain about being treated like "second class citizens," but they have no problem doing that to Christians. Everyone else can respond with their own presuppositions, but I'm supposed to forfeit mine? Give me a break.

Oh really? why is this because your "god" doesn't think so?
That might work for you but like i said before, that answer isn't going to work for me.

Whether it "works" for you is irrelevant. Have you not realized by now that this isn't about you? Or is your narcissism so deep that you can't discern what I'm saying? I'm not arguing from the perspective of pragmatism, but of truth. All of us will be held to account. Repent and believe in Jesus Christ, for the Kingdom of God is at hand.

I just hope one day you can stop using your bible as an excuse to be a bigot.

If you want bigotry and hatred, then look no further than Perez Hilton and other militant homosexuals. Don't look to me. I'm offering truth and the good news of the Gospel. Call me names all you want, but it doesn't take away from the truth of what I'm saying.

But that's not what you're really getting at: you want me to abandon my faith, reject my beliefs, and compromise my values so that you can *personally* feel better about your sexual sin.
That is not at all what i'm trying to do. AT ALL. i'm completely comfortable with my "sexual sin." So much so that I will marry, have children & grow old with my partner.
I'm not trying to attack you or ask you to abandon your beliefs by any means, i asked what i did because i'm honestly curious.
I know Christians get a lot of grief on a lot of different topics. My partner is Christian. But when you go throwing things like "homosexuality is evil" then you're bound to get some negative responses.

Don't look to me. I'm offering truth and the good news of the Gospel
This is your version of truth & good news, it doesn't mean everyone will agree or approve. When you go shoving it down the throats of others, talking like it is the one and only way to live people are going to get upset because it isn't the only way
Your faith & strong belief in "God" is working for you, but it may not work for others.
I also know there are a lot of bigotry and hatred inside the gay community. Perez asked that question to bring some light to his beliefs & get an opinion.
I don't agree with how he flamed her either. Whether or not she agrees with gay marriage shouldn't effect her in a pageant.

There is no winning a fight like this. We were going back and forth the other day and I just gave up because it isn't worth all the anger and frustration it takes to write.

You and your partner are gorgeous, by the way. You guys look so happy together.

I know exactly what you mean.
Gay Marriage is going to be a debate topic for my great grand kids to discuss.

Thanks =]

That is not at all what i'm trying to do. AT ALL.

Really? Wait, let me backtrack here......

Leave god, jesus, the bible, god's word etc out of it & i'd love to hear what you have to say.

Is that you that said that? Let me compare names real quick..hollywood whore..yup, that's you. it says it on all your posts. so, yes, you did ask him to abandon his faith. This is exactly what "leave [religious stuff] out of your opinion" means. It means abandon your faith and look to your carnality, the very thing he believes AGAINST doing. You hypocrite and bigot.

It's like asking you to forget that you're homosexual and that you have a girlfriend and to pretend that you're straight and Christian, just like him. That's ridiculous.

*applauds*

I love the hypocrisy of people sometimes. "Don't shove what you think down my throat" just as you go and try to shove yours down theirs. It's absolutely hilarious. If you truly believe in the "live and let live" policy, then let him live with his opinions and leave him alone. Say something like "God bless America for allowing us to all have our own opinions," tell him you respect his opinion and be done with it.

But no, you don't believe in "live and let live." You believe in "live my way or you're an idiot."

But, eh. I'm like you, I guess. Live my way, or be an idiot.

That is not at all what i'm trying to do. AT ALL. i'm completely comfortable with my "sexual sin."

I'm sure you are as your heart is obviously hardened. People love the darkness rather than the light. It's a natural condition for people to be comfortable in their sin, which is why they hate when they have to confront it directly for what it is.

I'm not trying to attack you or ask you to abandon your beliefs by any means, i asked what i did because i'm honestly curious.

On the contrary, you are indeed attacking me and trying to marginalize my beliefs. That's why you asked the questions you did. It shows how little you respect me as a human being that you won't even address my worldview directly.

I know Christians get a lot of grief on a lot of different topics. My partner is Christian. But when you go throwing things like "homosexuality is evil" then you're bound to get some negative responses.

Preaching the Gospel, proclaiming God's law, and speaking biblical truths in general will always bring negative responses. And I would seriously question whether your "partner" is a Christian since she's obviously in a state of unrepentant sin.

This is your version of truth & good news, it doesn't mean everyone will agree or approve.

The truthfulness of the claim is not dependent upon whether I believe it or if others agree with it.

When you go shoving it down the throats of others, talking like it is the one and only way to live people are going to get upset because it isn't the only way

I'm not shoving anything down people's throats, but proclaiming the way things *ought* to be. God doesn't ask for people to be righteous; He commands it. And yes, the biblical standards are indeed the *only* way.

Your faith & strong belief in "God" is working for you, but it may not work for others.

Christianity is not utilitarian. I'm not a Christian because it "works" for me, but because I happen to believe it's true.

Well said! Congrats on your future nuptials! ;)

Not that it matters....but this was the Miss USA pageant, NOT the Miss America pageant. Miss USA is based on looks and personality, while Miss American is based on intelligence and talent. So, in the end, does it really matter what a blonde from California really thinks about this topic anyway? Not really. We never hear of the great works that Miss USA does...only Miss America. Too many pageants in my opinion.

I don't agree with her, but should she have just said what it would take to win? No. She would have been labled a hypocrite when her true feelings came out later. She has a right to her opinion, same as I. Right or wrong. As long as she wasn't being cruel and malicious in her response I see no harm in it.

"Well I think its great that Americans are able to choose one or the other... And you know what, in my country, in my family"

To me it just seems like she is contradicting herself. She did not word her statement well; that what puts me off of it, regardless of which side of the issue I am on. She says she thinks it's great we can choose who we marry in our country, but then goes on to say that our country should not allow homosexual marriage. It isn't quite hypocritical, but it doesn't make sense.

There is nothing wrong with her opinion, but it would be wrong if she were disqualified for having that opinion. She has a right to state her honest opinion and, frankly, it's great that she wasn't afraid to state it. I don't agree with her, but she has that right to say what she thinks. If the judges decide to give her the boot for that, then they've closed their minds. Pity.