alas i must disagree with you also. i have never worked in that industry, but i agree with fearylynn.

i've only not tipped once, and that was because the waitress was extremely rude (we were a group of teens) and i could literally see our food sitting there and she would ignore us everytime we tried to get her attention. we told her we were on a tight time schedule, because we had to be back to school, and she chose to sit and wait on four other tables while we were waiting for food/drink orders.

Fearylynn's case was different-her server didn't serve her, so she had to tip the one who took over.
in your case, your server did serve you, just not well.
if she did a bad job, leave her a small tip, that's fine.
not leaving anything at all is rude, period. if you don't want to tip servers, you shouldn't go somewhere where they survive on tips-because it's unbelievably rude to them to get nothing.

have you ever served tables? if you have, you would probably know that juggling five tables isn't easy. if she screwed up and didn't give you enough attention because she was busy/didn't care/whatever, the right thing to do is just leave her a bad tip.

generally speaking, the idea that not tipping is okay contributes to the way servers are treated like crap constantly. it's not a good attitude to have that paying them is optional.

ps-sorry, you originally said you've never worked in the industry.

That in of itself explains why you feel that way. I promise you, if you did, you would not believe not tipping is okay.

I also think when people haven't been in that position, they don't realize the amount of things that can affect the service. Sometimes it it might be the server's fault, but not always. For instance, say the hostess sat your table in your server's section but sat two other tables in their section at the same time right after that. now the server is stuck with three tables that expect service at the exact same moment. someone is going to have to get their order taken last, and it wasn't the server's fault it took longer, or that they had to attend to other tables. they often get bad tips becuse of situations like that where people think they should be right there right away.

The majority of the time, servers don't "choose" to go to four other tables...they are forced to, because those people might be rudely asking for everything under the sun and they can't ignore requests, or their food came up quicker, or the cook is screwing things up...you just don't know what they are dealing with. they have to do whatever their table says, and some people are really horrible and you have to be there every 2 seconds :-P.

well i like to refute two of your points, if you don't mind.

about surviving just on paychecks, that is not my fault that they have chosen a job that doesn't pay very well. i should not be expected to be their employer and pay them equal wages. i simply came to a restraunt to enjoy my meal. if you don't act nice toward me, why should i pay you extra money? i understand if you're busy, just tell me you're a bit full in the restraunt or the cook is screwing up, etc. i'll understand. but if you are downright rude to me, or ignore me because i'm younger, you do not deserve extra pay. if you can't survive on just that pay, either quit your job or get a better attitude. if you don't deal well with people, or in stressful situations, don't take a job that will require you to combat both of those things, most of the time simultaneously.

and about the attitude that servers get treated badly, that's how it is at any job. i understand that i have never waited tables and i cannot speak from experience, but i would never expect extra money if i did a crappy job. THAT attitude is what's screwed up, not the fact that servers get treated like shit. they took the job knowing perfectly well what they were being paid. if they don't like it, don't take the job. but don't be selfish and assume that you should get paid for doing a crappy service. i would be pissed if i did a great job waitressing and the other server did horrible and she still made a decent amount of extra money. that sets the attitude that even if you don't do a good job, people will pat you on the back and tell you that its okay. that's the kind of attitude that is hurting america. as many other people have replied, tipping isn't required or expected in their country. it's an extra bonus for doing a good job, as it should be. if you don't do a good job, then no bonus. end of story.

The main problem here is that tips at restaurants( that pay servers $2 an hour) is not "extra". You realize that taxes come out of their paychecks, right? So they get paid, say 10 dollars a day , maybe 50 a week....then taxes are taken away from that. At the end of the week when state/federal and all that is taken away from an already abnormally low paycheck, there's basically nothing to that "official' paycheck. If they made minimum wage, than I would agree with you that tips are extra, but they aren't-the tips make up the overwhelmingly majority of the money they make, so it doesn't make sense that tips are extra if that is true.

So basically you ARE the one paying them, not the restaurant. If you give someone nothing for serving you, you're essentially getting something for free.

Again, when they do a crappy job, you give them a tip that is low, and THAT is giving them what they deserve....they get paid so little, because they sucked. that's fair enough. I'm not suggesting you give bad service a reward. But if you are served by someone, it doesn't make sense that they should work essentially for free.

People in other countries have no bearing on this. In other countries tipping is different because pay is different. They don't pay their workers that wage in other places, so they don't NEED tips. So yeah, there a tip IS extra. Here , it is not.

once again, i must say. they knew how much they would be paid by taking the job. i am not getting something for free. i am paying for food. if i could, i would do their job of transporting my food to and from my table. that is the service they provide me. if they do not do a good job, they should not get an extra gift. if they have a problem with their wages, don't take the job. again, if you do a crappy job, either get an attitude change or quit your job.

Well whether you'd like to get your food or not, you don't . You don't go get your own drinks and your own food. Instead, someone brings that to you as a service. All I was trying to say is, that service should be paid for. I didn't really think that was such a weird concept. I'm not trying to defend bad servers or answer whatever shitty situation you were in. I'm saying, generally speaking, there should not be a question of whether to tip or not. You just should, because thats the way the system works in America. Without it, we would have to pay them minimum wage.

I still can't believe you actually trhink a tip is some sort of "extra gift." After taxes, your server earns about a DOLLAR. This isn't about them knowing what kind of job they have. It's just about fairness-Do you really think anything more than one dollar for an hour of work is a "extra gift" ?

well, yes. like i've stated many times before, that is not my fault if they took a job that paid like crap. that is their responsibility, not mine. if they only earn a dollar after taxes, get a new job or get a better attitude that enables you to get tips. but don't expect to half ass do your job and get paid extra for doing it.

That was my poor wording then. My fault, I apologize.

What I meant was, it was 20 minutes before she came to get our orders, and another 30 before the OTHER guy saw to it that we got our drinks.

Therefore, I concede the point, because you're right. The way I made it sound, it would have been poor service, not NO service. And then she would have gotten a low tip. I generally try to be on the understanding side. I hate not tipping well, and tend to OVERtip unless the service was just absolutely terrible. Because you're right in your other post, there are a lot of factors.

But in that one instance, she didn't deserve even a low tip.

yeah, that's crap that she did that. I used to get so pissed when I would sit people's sections and for whatever the reason they didn't go get the table's order. it stupid, because someone else gets it and steps in, they make their money instead (like that guy did) !

I've never understood it. Even if the service isn't fantastic, as long as my server has a decent attitude, I usually give them the benefit of the doubt.

And even if you get a low tip, its better than losing out altogether.

If they are a pathetic server, and not because it's exceptionally busy but because it's obvious they are lazy, the ONLY tip I'll leave is a piece of paper telling them to do their damn job if they expect to get paid. And then I'll go to the manager and let the manager know how poorly that server did. But I will NOT tip a server who can't be bothered to even TRY to do their job right.

If, however, their service wasn't optimal because it is obviously busy and you can tell they are doing their best, I'll still leave a tip. Anything less than the best they can do doesn't warrant a tip, period. You don't get a tip for being lazy and WILLINGLY not doing your job to the best of your ability.

I'm not suggesting you should. I thought it was pretty obvious that I was never trying to defend idiots who don't do their job. I apologize if that's what people think of what I said before. I am simply saying, if someone does their job and performs a service for you, they should get paid. That's really all.

Americans have thought I'm Australian before too. ;D And English, and Irish!

Then I'm like "I'm from England" they're like "Oh thats in London right?"

The French make sugary sliced bread too! It's so disgusting.

"I don't know if this is just the area we went to, but there weren't any true restaurants, you just went to a buffet for your food, unless you wanted ribs or a steak."

It's probably the area you went to. We have many true restaurants here, but some cities focus on buffets. It's weird for me to visit them too. :P

I can honestly say that I could give 2 shits less about the east coast of America (Florida, New York, ect..). I am a midwest coast American, laid back, I'm not rich (not poor either) more so in between. Taxes confuse me sometimes, & I've lived here for my entire life!!! :D :D :D Tipping is a generous gesture if the person who is suppose to be waiting on your table does their job correctly and respectably. I love our bread, not a huge fan of chocolate but perhaps I should try some from your country? :D :D :D SEND CHOCOLATE PLEEEEEZE~~!!!! As far as cars go, my husband drives a Subaru sports car, hatchback style I think. I drive an 88 Honda Prelude but my dream car is a Lotus Elise (maybe... someday it will be mine). Arizona green tea is very nice. :D :D :D

What's a midwest coast American? Last time I checked there was an East Coast and a West Coast.

I consider Utah (where I live) to be midwest coast America. Utah isn't located directly on the coast but more so in the middle -ish area of the USA. :D :D :D

You know, you are a perfect example of a midwest American.

lol @ "Midwest coast"

*oooh, sorry. Didn't mean to say "coast". *lol*

By the way, I was debating telling you this, because it was funny to watch it go on, but a COAST is the EGDE of the country near the sea.

Glad someone said it.

Midwest coast. *rolls eyes*

No shit?? *lol* Type o, thanks tho =)