I think it sounds totally fair. Even though I'm a Christian, it doesn't make sense to force Christian values upon anyone, especially given my belief that God alone can change hearts (not government). I would be very happy with any solution that promotes both fairness AND the church's ability to choose who to marry. This last part is what's going to cause problems though. In some cases, I believe it already has. (Maybe if Josh comes back he can point you to some recent situations in which the church's freedoms were allegedly violated.)

I don't doubt it. The state shouldn't have to force anyone to do anything unless it it's a legal issue, which a church refusing gays to marry isn't.

From what I understand, the gays have WON the battle with the government. They were granted civil unions. It's the complete benefit package that comes with being married, no differences. It completely extracts the legality from marriage and gives it to homosexual couples.

The word marriage conveys a societal and cultural meaning, and I figure that's what gays are fighting for, correct?

Correction: Only certain states recognize civil unions. Connecticut, New Hampshire, New Jersey, and Vermont.

Every time I hear the uneducated argument being brought up it reminds me so much of the Word of God that speaks to the issue of the wisdom of the world and true wisdom which comes from God.

Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. (James 3:13-18 KJV)

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction. (Proverbs 1:7 KJV)

And then Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. (Romans 1:22-27 KJV)

So who the wise of this age...The Bible would tells us it is the one who loves and fears God and obeys his commandments, not the college educated (nothing wrong with college), but that isn't who God calls wise and filled with understanding. I am sure this note will generate some hate mail, but that is what I thought of in the Word and how there seems to be a contradiction in what some would call being educated and intelligent and who God considers to be.

I agree with you 100%. I wish more people would respect each other instead of getting their panties in a bunch over the fact that they can't make someone else agree with them.

The religous nutballs of the world who believe that the bible is more than just parables and fiction need to realize that the LGBT community is not asking for any kind of religious support of their marriage, simply the legal RIGHT to marry and thus receive all the legal "benefits" as a heterosexual couple. If everyone would pull their heads out of the clouds for a minute and realize that no gay couple is going to walk into YOUR church/temple/mosque/WHATEVER and ask that their marriage be recognize, that the f**k business is it of yours whether or not they wish to marry? I have had it with brainwashed, judgmental bigots who refuse to realize that this is life OUTSIDE of religion for many people and that your life will go ON regardless of whether or not ADAM and STEVE are allowed to legally marry. *And now I'm done with my little rant*

It's rants like this that make our side of the argument fall on deaf ears. Cursing and calling people with different morals "religious nutballs" and "brainwashed, judgmental bigots" really isn't going to make them more likely to let you do your thing. It just fuels the fire. How can you expect someone to be tolerant of your beliefs when you aren't tolerant of theirs?

But I guess that's the whole point of drama ^_^

Well you guys get called religious nutballs and brainwashed and then the other side gets called things like faggot lovers, fag, "other hateful things that I can't think of". It sadly goes both ways.

Sadly, I am NOT religious and I have been called dyke/fag/whatever. It helps to read that I said "our" side of the argument, instead of assuming I am trying to oppose your side just because I disagree with the presentation. This supports an underlying point that when you let your emotions dictate your argument instead of rationale, you end up saying things that make you look stupid.

Eh, not really emotions, it's called 2 hours of sleep. XD No sleep does make me stupid, I freely admit. ^_^

I realize I chose my words poorly, however, I just read through TEN pages of completely ridiculous notions of how this is all about undermining each person's religious beliefs/ideals/moral codes/whatever. It has nothing to do with religion and only those who are for gay marriage seem to realize this.

I didn't call anyone a faggot etc...and I never would. So lets stick to what has been shown and I haven't seen a single Christian say anything that comes close to that statement.

I didn't mean here, I mean in general. Names get called from both sides b/c it's so close to the heart.

You beat me to it. I was about to point this out myself. I can't believe what I'm reading. She chooses to behave like that in a forum about tolerance?! How embarrassing!

lol! The fact that this forum even got to this point is ridiculous!
Anyway can you believe I never even knew who Perez Hilton even WAS until I saw that interview he did on Larry King?
I kind of wish it was still that way... sigh.... lol

Actually, I wasn't embarrassed at all. A little too passionate about the topic perhaps, but not embarrassed. Thank you. :)

Also, I can tolerate a LOT of religious sentiment and hype..many of my friends often quote the bible or "pray" or whatever. I don't make fun of them and I don't judge them. And in reality, I wasn't "judging" any religious person here. I was trying to state that religion has absolutely NO point in the conversation. There government could care less whether you're Jewish, Baptist, Lutheran, Muslim, whatever...they still require everyone to get a marriage license. That is what the LGBT community wants...the opportunity to GET the license!

I didn't say you were judging anyone. If you'll read my previous posts in this thread I believe I did state that there needs to be a total and unambiguous separation of church and state in our country; so I agree with you. I would love to have "legal marriage" rights with whomever I deem worthy, regardless of if they are a woman as I am, if they dress like a man but are legally a woman, or if I feel that I should commit myself to more than one person. It is not the church's business what I do legally unless I am part of the chruch, nor is it the state's business what I do spiritually as long as it is not hurting nor affecting someone else negatively.

Yes, that is exactly my point.

Ten pages later and you still don't get the point.

Your would argue a lot more effectively if you actually understood your opponent's views. To religious people, religion has everything to do with it because faith dictates their political beliefs. You simply cannot ask them to abandon their faith for your sake, especially when you go on a cursing tirade of hatred yourself.

Sadly, you still don't get the point. You (and I mean this loosely, not just directly point at you in particular) need to separate politics and religion. This is why our founding government has advocated the separation...otherwise we would never progress as a society. That is what I'm asking those who feel strongly about their faith to do...realize that who a person marries has no direct impact on your faith and therefore should not be of any concern. Trying to impose one's faith belief system on another person is quite intolerable as well. By forcing non-straight or non-religiious individuals to believe your way is right by denying them a legal right, then you no better than any other intolerant person in the world.

When you try to force someone to believe your way, that is definitely intolerance at it's best. But in this thread, I have seen more of that from the pro gay marriage side than the Christian side. And yes, the pgm side HAS done that quite a BIT in this thread by simply stating that unless you agree with them, you are intolerant. Thus FORCING the Christians to either change their mind or be considered intolerant.

I suggest you go back and actually read what some of the Christians have said about gay marriage. You will find that while they do disagree with two people of the same gender marrying, they also proposed a rather intelligent and TOLERANT plan on how to allow homosexual couples to have the same rights as heterosexual couples.

Hey! Go up a few pages and read the opinion I gave earlier!

Thorough reading FAIL.

lol! I resisted for so long but I finally started using the "fail!" and "win!" I must say it's so amusing.

This thread WAS about a young woman stating her very tactfully spoken opinion, and other people calling her ignorant or intolerant or uneducated because of her opinion. Which frankly, calling someone intolerant or ignorant or uneducated simply because their opinion differs is about THE ABSOLUTELY MOST intolerant thing I have EVER heard.

Once again, tolerance isn't about agreeing with everyone, but it IS about respecting their right to believe what they believe. REGARDLESS of how YOU PERSONALLY feel about their opinion or how they came upon their opinion. A fact that the majority of even the PRO GAY MARRIAGE side seems to miss.