Well in that case I apologise for the misunderstanding. It's hardly surprising though, considering there are a number of people who genuinely believe Obama doesn't care about the elderly (and it had sounded as if that was where you were heading with your comment about your grandma). I have never heard that Kanye West quote before. :P

And by the way, calling people 10 years older than you 'sweetheart' in that manner just makes you sound rude and patronising, and rather childish.

so is calling a person brainwashed. ;)

And I apologised. But those who do believe these stupid rumours about mandatory euthanasia etc HAVE been brainwashed by the media.

I think you've misunderstood... under the new system there would be no medicare. Treatment would be available to everyone. And there's no reason why it should affect specialist referrals at all. It certainly doesn't in the UK. If a patient needs to see a specialist, they see a specialist. Why on earth would that change?

So, if she is on medicare, under this new bill she wouldn't be able to go to a specialist. Like Transit said, it will get rid of medicare so basically she will be able to see a specialist. Unless the bill is actually trying to get rid of all specialty doctors in general, which is highly unlikely.

Why would they make a health care system, that doesn't have any health workers?

It looks like medicare would be just for those who aren't citizens/tourists without insurance, but if emergency treatment was needed that required a specialist they would be able to see a specialist.

It's totally chill that people don't want to help others receive health care who can't afford it. I'm totally happy that I pay $70/month for health insurance through my employer, but know that if I get a major illness (like cancer or something that needs long term treatment) I'm probably going to die because I can't afford the 20% I'll have to pay after I meet my $800 out of pocket deductible and my $2700 out of pocket maximum (for one year only. the deductibles and maximums reset the next plan year). I also enjoy paying $400 a year for one necessary prescription. It's so expensive because there's no generic option available that after this prescription ends I'm going to talk to my doctor about getting something that's cheap. I don't really care if it works as good as what I'm currently on, but it needs to be a generic so that I can afford it.

Clearly, by just my experience, our health care system is fucking fantastic, no!?

But it's OK if you get cancer and die, despite being a hardworking American, because at least it doesn't allow illegal immigrants to abuse the system anymore than they already do... :P

I just cannot get my head around that attitude...

Exactly. I don't want to inconvenience certain people with my silly health problems. The real issue here is undocumented immigrants going to the emergency room for broken bones and car accidents. As long as they aren't allowed to be treated for free, and as long as babies are unable to be aborted, who cares if I die!?

I also still think it's hilarious that no one has really commented on the statement of it being okay for children to die because they cannot pay for healthcare... as long as they're not aborted. For some reason it seems like they're saying, 'as long as the baby can't be aborted, who cares if it dies once it's born, I'm not paying for it's health care!" I mean, at least the child got the chance to suffer right!? *expletive*

Like I've said, a million times, where I'm from in Ohio children certainly aren't dying because they can't afford healthcare. If people are sick here and they have no insurance or money, and therefore have no doctor, they just continually go to the ER. That's why a lot of ER's are more like clinics. I agree our healthcare needs reformed but what's the answer? No matter what you are going to have people that feed off the system because they know they can. Our welfare system needs reformed too, because people live on it for years when it's supposed to be in place to help someone get back on their feet after a job loss, divorce, etc.

ERs do NOT provide treatment for chronic conditions. They do not, for example provide insulin for children with diabetes... they do not provide chemotherapy for children with leukaemia.

And children DO die. Not often, because childhood deaths are uncommon anyway. But they do happen.

One example - Life and Death Chikd Health Reform

And also from childrensdefense.org:

Uninsured Children & Pregnant Women in America

- 9 million children – that's one in nine – have no health insurance. Millions more children are underinsured―with health plans that seriously limit their access to critical services such as vision and dental care, prescription drugs and mental health care.
- A child is born uninsured every 39 seconds. That’s more than 2,200 children each day.
- About 800,000 pregnant women are uninsured, while each year, approximately 28,000 infants die in America before they can reach their first birthday.
- One out of 8 Black children is uninsured. One out of 5 Hispanic children is uninsured, compared with one out of every 13 White children. The disproportionate lack of health coverage is one of many disadvantages that can affect a minority child's chances of growing up in excellent health.

Having Insurance Makes a Real Difference for Children

- Uninsured children are almost 9 times as likely to have a medical need that goes unmet than a child with health coverage, and are 5 times as likely as an insured child to go more than 2 years without seeing a doctor. Regular health screenings help doctors identify and treat problems preventively and are crucial to a child's healthy development.
- An estimated two-thirds of children and youth with mental health needs are not getting the help they need. In fact, unmet need is as high today as it was 20 years ago. Children without mental health coverage are at risk of entering the Pipeline.
- Uninsured children are more than 4 times as likely as an insured child to have an unmet dental health need. In 2000, children missed more than 51 million hours of school because of dental-related illness.
- Uninsured children are more likely than insured children to perform poorly in school; in contrast, enrolling children in health coverage has been associated with greatly improved school performance.

I wasn't claiming it NEVER happened. I am a single mother, that falls throught the cracks. My two daughters and I do not have insurance. I totally agree that our Healthcare needs reformed. I do not want the government running my health care. In my experience, everything our government gets involved in goes to crap. There has to be a better answer than government run health care, but do I have that answer? No, I most certainly do not.

So out of interest, what would you do if one of your daughters developed leukaemia (I really hope you're never unlucky enough to be in this position as wouldn't wish it on anyone)? Unless you have A LOT of money, I assume that without insurance you would not have the means to pay doctors bills, chemotherapy costs etc. The ER cannot treat leukaemia. So what would you do? If having her treated under a government run healthcare system is not the answer, what is? Would you rather your child die than have to pay into a public healthcare system?

You can't argue against a system unless you have a better solution.

I would do whatever I had to do. I guess that's where I differ than most people, I fully have faith that God will bring my girls and I through whatever situation He brings us to. So I guess, faith is my better solution. I would be more ok with the bill if there were some sort of opt out that citzens could take. I have 'opted' my children out of public schools, why not public health care?

I would do whatever I had to do.

What does that mean?? That's not an answer. That doesn't explain how you would find money that you simply do not have. :P

I'm a Christian too (as are many many supporters of public health care), and I think faith is a wonderful thing to have. However I think that choosing to put your children at risk because you have faith in God is extremely dangerous.

Did you see the story recently about the child who was sick (I can't remember the details... in a diabetic coma perhaps) and instead of taking the child to hospital, the parents and some of their friends kept the child at home and prayed for the child instead. The child died. Those parents had faith that God would bring their child through. And the child DIED. If the child had been taken to hospital he almost certainly would have survived (kids are tough, and if treated properly can bounce back from terrible insults to their health, if they recieve the right medical care).

Putting faith in God is all very well and good, but I believe that sometimes you have to do things for yourselves. Healthcare did not fail the child above, God did not fail him (because God gives parents choices and the option to do the RIGHT thing, or not), the government did not fail him. He was failed by his parents. Faith is NOT an alternative for health care.

I didn't see that story. I mean I would do what I had to do. I would work however many jobs I could, to at least pay a balance to medical bills. Obviously, while we are both Christians, our faith is slightly different. I believe that God provides for His children. I also feel that if it's your time to go no amount of medical treatment will save you, God is much bigger than any medical treatments. It's a thin line between having faith and medical intervention for me - I'm sure that makes me sound crazy, but I can assure you if I felt my children needed medical treatment, I know a means to that end would be provided. That's just me, I would never force my faith on other people, but He hasn't let us down yet and while we haven't faced a chronic illness, things haven't always been easy. We were faced with a good many medical bills when my oldest daughter randomly lost all her hair ... it's not the same at all, but it's the best example I can give (for us personally).

Secondly, I disagree with most modern medicine anyway. I would much rather go to an alternative doctor/herbalist and have my chilren treated that way. That being said, as a last resort if my child was sick I would take her to the hospital. What if I want to pay for my healthcare out of pocket? As I see it makes more sense for my family to do that way? I should be allowed that option. I should be able to make the choice for my chidren. I am raising them, not the government.

I also feel that if it's your time to go no amount of medical treatment will save you, God is much bigger than any medical treatments.

Yes, I agree 100%. However, that is not the same thing as suggesting someone will die with or without medical treatment, and it is certainly not an excuse for not seeking medical treatment! I do not believe God wishes people to keep their children from the medical professionals who can save their lives. And honestly, I think a parent who would not take her child to a doctor were they seriously sick should not be allowed to keep their children. No child deserves to die as a result of their parents negligence.

Many many medical conditions (like diabetes or asthma) in children can be easily treated by medicines. If those children do not recieve those medicines they WILL die. If they do recieve the treatments, they will live. I believe God gave people the ability to become doctors, to create drugs, which CAN save lives, because he wishes us to do so.

I believe in complementary medicines (e.g. herbal treatments, homeopathy etc), that is, in addition to conventional medicine. I do believe there is a place for them, and some of them actually have medical evidence that they work (e.g acupuncture). But I think to consider these treatments to be 'alternative' is extremely dangerous. If your child has leukaemia homeopathy or herbal treatments will NOT save her life. Only chemotherapy can do that. Complementary therapies do not cure cancer. They cannot treat diabetes. They cannot cure appendicitis. And to refuse her the correct treatment because of some belief you have which is based on some desire to be 'natural' , but which is based on no medical evidence whatsoever is dangerous and irresponsible. Fair enough if you want to mess about with your own health... but we're talking about children who get no say in the matter, being put at risk.

That being said, as a last resort if my child was sick I would take her to the hospital.

Well, now you're contradicting yourself. Surely, given your faith that God will come through for you, there'd be no reason for you to bother going to a hospital. Afterall, you've more or less just said that if they're going to die, they'll die, so what's the point?

And you've yet to explain how you'd pay for it? Or what you'd do if you couldn't pay for it.

Under the system being proposed you COULD choose to go private still, and pay for your child's healthcare out of your own pocket (what you couldn't do is refuse your child access to healthcare at all, which is what you're doing at the moment and which is extremely dangerous). But you're not saying that's what you'll do. You're saying you don't have the money. So effectively you're saying your child will go without healthcare, but hopefully somehow a miracle will occur and all will be OK.

RedFraggle.. can I just say you're awesome? ;-D
There. Said. :-p

Why, thank you. :)

I'm sorry, but I'm not trying to be rude. But you implying I'm endangering my children is rude. I'm simply going to agree to disagree with you. I think your arguement is very valid and I respect what you have said, just for my family, I disagree. I would buy health insurance now if the whole system wasn't screwed up. The bottom line is I'm pretty much agaisnt the goverment being involved in my life or that of my children anymore than it must be. If I had a 100% better solution then I would probably tell someone, however I don't. I can't hardly go professing all of America adopt the type of faith I have, that would be obnoxious and totally stupid. I'm sorry my answer doesn't satisfy you, I don't have a plan of what happens if something happens and my kids contract a chronic illness ... that is part of having faith to me. If that ever happens I will make sure and let you know how we handled it.

Rude or not, it's the truth. Refusing a sick child medical treatment (for whatever reason) is endangering them. It is not opinion. It is fact.

Do you know my children? Have they suffered? No. Have they been denied medical treatment when it was needed? No. Have I paid out of pocket for nearly all their medical expenses and my last delivery? Yes. It's totally insane to me that choosing to go 'agaisnt the norm' of health care is enough to make people say you should be found guilty of child abuse, yet to totally abandon your children is ok in our society! What's rude is you do not know my girls personally, so you have no grounds on which to make those claims.

Up until recently my daughters have went to their ped for nearly everything. I have paid out of pocket. When Emma had GI issues I paid out of pocket for her numerous tests. My daughters both have all their vaccinations -- again mostly out of pocket, though for a year I did have insurance.

I'm not totally opposed to healthcare/health insurance. I am opposed to government healthcare, I'd much rather go without and then have the government attempting to control another aspect of our lives.

Also, as far as my faith statements go I do trust if medical intervention was needed a means to that end would be provided. Like I've said, I'm not against health care, I'm sorry it sounded that way. Given our current situation and our options being self-pay and having faith is best. Insurance is basically a safety net and for us God is a better one anyway. If insurance were available at my work I would sign up.

My employer contributes a monthly amount into a HSA in place of providing insurance. I work for a small company and I'm the only employee that isn't covered on a spouse's insurance policy, so they set up the HSA.

I apologize for typos I have a toddles squirming on my lap lol.

I do not need to know your children. We are not discussing them. We are discussing your attitude towards healthcare, which affects how you care for them if they are sick. I cann't say if they have suffered or not as I know nothing about them, but the impression I get from our brief discussion is that no, that have not suffered. But that the reason why they haven't suffered is because you've been lucky enough (so far) that they haven't become seriously ill.

I am not saying that what you describe is child abuse because it 'goes against the norm'. It has nothing to do with going with the norm or not. It has to do with an action (not seeking proper medical treatment because you have faith in God, or prefer complementary medicines) towards your children which could be harmful. I don't care if people want to do things in an unconventional way... I do care if it results in a child being harmed. And I never anywhere said that abandoning a child is OK, so that point is completely irrelevant to the discussion. We are not disussing what other parents do. We are discussing what you do.

I'm glad to hear your kids have been well treated for their illnesses, and that you did seek proper medical care and that you were able to pay for it (as I've already said, under Obama's proposal, you would STILL be able to pay for care yourself if you wanted to! You just would not be allowed to refuse them medical care on the basis of being unable to afford it).

Saying you'd rather your children go without healthcare than have the government control your lives is INSANE! Surely your kids lives and health are the main priority?!? Not some issue you have with government control. And this isn't an attempt for government control... it's an attempt to ensure everyone can access health care... to save lives!

cannot, not cann't. :P Must proof read before posting.

Incidently, you've not yet mentioned how you feel about the story of the child who died because the parents chose faith over medical care. Below is a link to an article telling the full story.

Diabetic child dies as parents pray

Now, from what you are saying, your beliefs are very similar to those of these parents. Do you want this to happen to your child? What would you have done? Funnily enough, I actually defended these parents saying the loss of their child was punishment enough, prison wouldn't help the situation, and that what they needed was education. However, speaking to you has made me realise that some people will just refuse to be educated, and if that means putting a child at risk... perhaps they should be held accountable.

This child almost certainly would have lived if taken to hospital sooner. She died because her parents chose to trust God INSTEAD of trusting medics. What they should have done was trusted God to help the doctors save her life. But they didn't. And she died and it was their fault. PLEASE do not let this happen to you.